Many of my blog posts this year have been about the mess we’re in. American democracy is being challenged like no other time in recent history, if ever.
Some people have been known to say in the last six months that we could have another civil war in the United States. Perhaps you’ve thought it yourself or heard someone else say those words.
Series of Webinars Sponsored by The Carter Center
This spring I watched a series of webinars sponsored by The Carter Center about our divided country. Panelists explored how we got to this place, how we can learn from other countries, what we can do to avoid what other countries have experienced, and where we can start.
The country that served as the example in the four webinars was Northern Ireland.
The facilitator for the webinars was the Rev. Dr. Gary Mason, a Methodist minister, peacemaker, and peacebuilder from Northern Ireland. Dr. Mason founded Rethinking Conflict in 2015. It seeks to model the principles of Northern Ireland’s Good Friday Agreement.
That agreement finally ended the conflict on Good Friday, April 10, 1998. Dr. Mason has taken this model to the Middle East and now, to the United States.
Dr. Mason spoke from personal experience growing up during “The Troubles.”
If you are interested in watching the four “Why are we divided?” webinars, here’s the link: https://georgiadrn.org/divided-webinar/.
What if “The Troubles” happened in the United States?
British troops occupied Northern Ireland in August 1969. Everyone thought it would be over before Christmas, but there was an amazing amount of violence over the next 30 years. It was the longest occupation by the British Army in history.
To give Americans some perspective on the amount of violence that took place in Northern Ireland during “The Troubles,” Dr. Mason gave the following statistics: At that time, Northern Ireland had a population of 1.5 million. During The Troubles, nearly 4,000 were killed, 47,000 were injured, there were 37,000 shootings, 30,000 people went through the penal system, there were 22,000 armed robberies, and 16,000 bombings.
He extrapolated that out to compare with the population of the United States over a 30-year conflict. If we had such a civil war in the US, we could see 800,000 killed, 9 million injuries, 7 million shootings, 6 million political prisoners, 4 million armed robberies, and 3 million bombings.
Imagine that level of carnage in America. I can’t.
An estimated 618,000 Americans died in our Civil War in the 1860s. To bring it “home,” I’ve studied the local losses in my own church in that war. Out of a membership of 400 white members and 200 black enslaved members, the congregation lost 74 men in the war. I cannot imagine that number of deaths in this community.
Just like it, undoubtedly, took decades for my community to recover from the war, 27 years after the Good Friday Agreement, Dr. Mason says in Northern Ireland “we are still wrestling with the legacy of the conflict. It’s really the one piece of unfinished business of the peace process.”
Indeed, in the United States we’re still wrestling with the legacy of our civil war. Confederate statues were taken down, but Trump wants them put back in place. Confederate names were removed from US military installations, but now the names are being restored, albeit technically they are not being renamed for the Confederates.
For example, Fort Bragg here in North Carolina was originally named for Braxton Bragg, a Confederate Army General who owned slaves. His name was removed, all the signs and letterhead replaced to say “Fort Liberty” in June 2023, and then in February 2025, Fort Liberty was renamed Fort Bragg but this time for a decorated Private in World War II, Roland X. Bragg.
We are still wrestling with the legacy of our Civil War, so it is not surprising that 27 years after the fact, the people of Northern Ireland are wrestling with theirs.
In Northern Ireland, People Hated Each Other
When peace talks began in Northern Ireland, the people in the room hated each other. No wonder it took so many years for them to develop a peace agreement.
Is that where we are today in the United States of America?
In polite society, we generally get along with each other. But, as I wrote about in my April 17, 2025, blog post, Is your family getting together during Holy Week? Brace yourself!, it only takes one person making an inflammatory remark and a heated argument can break out even among a group of friends or a family gathering.
Do Americans hate each other?
I don’t hate anyone, but I hate what some individuals and groups are doing to our country.
I hate that the US Congress has relinquished its legislative responsibilities to a US President who is legislating via Executive Orders.
I hate that thousands of federal employees have been fired or forced to take early retirement.
I hate that medical research funds and researchers have been eliminated.
I hate that people are being shipped off to a prison in El Salvador without due process.
I hate when people are shipped off to a prison El Salvador by mistake, the US President says he is powerless to do anything about it.
I hate that USAID was halted and will result in people starving.
I hate that universities, museums, and libraries are being targeted and punished.
I hate that Moms for Liberty think they have the right to dictate which books should not be read.
I hate that the Heritage Foundation was able to slide Project 2025 into the White House while the Republican Presidential nominee denied having anything to do with it.
I hate that many of the most vocally hateful voices in this country come from people who claim to be Christians. They give Christianity and Christians a bad name.
So how do we get out of this mess?
If we take the peacemaking and peacebuilding experience of Dr. Gary Mason into consideration, since he has lived through a civil war, we will open avenues of communication with people with whom we disagree.
The core advice from How to Have That Difficult Conversation in Uncivil Times, by Janet Givens is that we start by finding common ground to break the ice with people we need to have that difficult conversation with. Surely, there is something you and they have in common. (See my August 22, 2022, blog post, <em>L.E.A.P.F.R.O.G.: How to hold a civil conversation in an uncivil era</em>, <em>Third Edition, </em>by Janet Givens.)
Taking Dr. Mason’s advice, we will then calmly and sincerely ask the person or persons why they feel the way they do about the topic with which we know we disagree with them, and then we will respectfully listen to their story.
Hopefully, they will be equally curious about our story and allow us to explain our position and why or how we arrived at it. Without honesty by both parties and a genuine curiosity by both parties, and a real listening by both parties… it won’t be a successful conversation.
Then, we move on to another person with whom we disagree and repeat the process.
Hmmm. Sounds easy on paper?
No, it doesn’t even sound easy on paper, much less in real life.
Bottom line is, I don’t know how we get out of this mess.
It has been my experience that people who stand on the opposite end of the political spectrum from where I stand, are not interested in hearing my story. They tend to be loud, rude, and condescending. They tend to call names and belittle, like their political leader on Pennsylvania Avenue.
So I really don’t know how we will get out of this mess. When I consider having “that difficult conversation” with anyone I know who supports Trump, I honestly cannot imagine that I would be able to have a productive conversation with them about politics. Our worldviews and core beliefs about democracy are just that far apart.
A chilling perspective
I just reread White Robes and Broken Badges: Infiltrating the KKK and Exposing the Evil Among Us, by Joe Moore. I blogged about that book on October 7, 2024, in What I Read Last Month & a Hurricane Helene Update, and I will blog about it again on July 7.
Speaking from the unique place of having infiltrated the Ku Klux Klan twice for the FBI, Moore stated in his book, “The radical right cares nothing about process, only outcome. They’re not interested in a civil discussion to work out differences, because they are so consumed by ideology that it has hijacked their civility. They have a clear vision of what they want the country to look like, and democracy itself is the only thing standing in their way.”
That leaves us in a hopeless situation. I don’t want to be hopeless, but I admit I don’t know how to have a productive conversation about politics with anyone who supports Donald Trump.
Even when Donald Trump is no longer in office, the people who agree with his tactics will still be with us. Our mess is bigger than an election or two can clean up.
Until my next blog post
How do you think we can get out of this mess?
What have you tried? Did it work?
It is going to take all of us to get our country out of this mess. The politicians certainly aren’t going to save us!
Remember the people of Northern Ireland, Ukraine, and western North Carolina.
Janet
P.S. I wrote and scheduled today’s blog post before the United States bombed three nuclear facilities in Iran on Saturday night, Eastern Time.
Janet's Writing Blog 
I visited Northern Ireland twice, including Belfast — the heart of the Troubles. I walked through the areas where Catholics and Protestants still live apart, separated by high walls. It felt mostly peaceful, but you could still sense that a few holdouts keep the old tensions alive.
It reminded me of the current divide in the United States. I believe most Americans long for calm and democracy, not chaos. But just like in Northern Ireland, some people have trouble letting go of old beliefs and resentments.
Here in Europe, we’ve seen what happens when people end up on the wrong side of history. After WWII, those who supported the Nazis often faced consequences — not always publicly, but society remembered.
You asked how we can get out of this mess, and what I’ve tried. Honestly, I don’t know. I try to stay open, to keep listening, and not to give up hope. That may not solve everything, but it keeps me going — and maybe that’s already something.
And what can we expect from politicians around the world? Not much, I’m afraid. Many seem more focused on power than on people.
So what can we do?
We can stay engaged. Keep speaking up, even in small circles. Listen, even when it’s hard. Support truth, kindness, and fairness wherever we can. Real change often starts close to home — in conversations, in communities, and in the choices we make every day. That may feel small, but it matters more than we think.
LikeLike
I’m at a loss for how to get out of this mess. We’re already in so deep.
LikeLike
Liz, I honestly don’t see any way out either. A few minutes ago I logged into Facebook and the first thing that popped up was from a woman I have literally known since birth. We were never close, but we grew up in the same church and schools. She is a year older than I. I always ignore her posts because they are so extreme. Today’s was a endless list of all the things that President Obama did or said that prove he is a Muslim and not an American. At the bottom is a picture of President Biden maybe 20 years ago and a recent picture of him. Red circles point out how his face as changed. I assume that means he was cloned or photoshopped or…. I really don’t know what that is supposed to demonstrate. I will not respond to her. What’s the point? However, I would like to ask her if her face has changed any over the last 20 years. I know mine has, so I’m not surprised that Joe Biden’s has. Way too much Kool-Aid has been consumed. I see no way out of this mess. The word “brainwashed” isn’t strong enough to describe these people. It’s sad that the only history they know is what has been spoon fed to them about Barack Obama. They can’t seem to enjoy the Trump years because they are still distraught about the Obama and Biden years. Perhaps we will end up like Northern Ireland. I’m glad I’m old.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me, Matroos. My sister and I visited Northern Ireland for just a couple of hours sometime in the 1990s. At that time, there was passenger ferry service between Campbeltown, Scotland and Ballycastle, N. Ireland. We voiced concern about going across to N. Ireland, but our friend in Campbeltown said we had nothing to worry about — even though he still has a bullet lodged in his back from being shot in Belfast while deployed by the British Army. We had an ice cream cone and walked around Ballycastle for a bit. That’s all we had time to do before taking the ferry back to Campbeltown. We wanted to take that ferry trip because it was from Campbeltown that our Morrison ancestors sailed to America in the early 1760s. That is the route their ship would have taken to get to the open Atlantic. It was a thrill to imagine that first hour of their voyage and to see the sights they saw as they must have looked back on Campbeltown knowing they would never see their home country again.
Back to the subject at hand… We Americans are spoiled by being so far from the World War I and World War II battlefields, the widespread bombing of the cities and countryside. Except for the military veterans, that’s all just so far removed from our experience that we can’t truly grasp to reality of war and its aftermath. There is also an arrogance in America that we’re smarter than the rest of the world (which is truly laughable now that we’ve elected Donald Trump twice!) and that our military might will save us. (Having Pete Hegseth as Secretary of Defense gives me no comfort or confidence.) It remains to be seen what the short-term and long-term ramifications of Saturday’s bombing of Iran will have on Americans and anyone Iran thinks is a friend of America. I’m afraid we just ripped a scab off an old wound.
You have shared sound advice for how we get out of the mess we’re in in the United States. I am trying so hard to be optimistic, but it gets more difficult by the day. About the time I think there is a ray of hope that some Trump supporters are beginning to doubt him, I see something new posted by a Trumper on social media that knocks the wind out of me. Today, on Facebook, a woman I’ve known since birth (she is a year old than I; we were in the same church, same schools, etc., but we are no longer close) posted an endless list of “proof” that President Obama was a Muslim and not an American! Matroos, these people are so full of hate and angry about the eight Obama years and the four Biden years, they can’t even “enjoy” the Trump years that they claim to be so happy about. And this woman I’m referring to is a college-educated retired special education teacher. Needless to say, she has been attending a very different church all her adult life than the Presbyterian church we grew up in and I still attend. She has really been radicalized by her present church. It is a brand of Christianity that I don’t think Jesus could recognize, but she goes every Sunday and all her pro-Trump ideas get reenforced. It is so sad what has happened to so many Christians in the United States. The non-denominational and far-right-conservative denominations have proliferated over the last 30 years. Their pastors are uneducated and their worship services are more like sports pep rallies than a traditional worship service. I think this is very much the root of where America started going down this hate-filled path several decades ago. I really don’t see how we will find our way out. I have a close circle of friends who are equally as concerned as I am, but politics is now something I would never consider mentioning to a stranger or a person I know fairly well but I don’t know where they stand on Trump.
I’ll continue to keep up with the news and writing my blog. I’ll look for other ways to speak up. I’ll keep praying for my country and our world every day. I’m glad I can’t see into the future. I don’t think I could stand it.
Meanwhile… we are in the throes of the first heatwave of the summer here in North Carolina. Going outside is like walking into an oven!
Thank you again for all your thoughts and comments. Take care.
LikeLike
I’m glad that I have many more years behind me than ahead of me.
LikeLike
As an outsider looking in this is going to effect many of us especially if it is believed we support the US action…That man is unbelievable!
LikeLike
Well done, Janet!!
LikeLike
Well said, Liz. Well said.
LikeLiked by 1 person
The comparison to the rise of the Nazis in Germany seems more relevant to me than the situation in N Ireland, which to be honest seems to me to have very little comparison to the situation in the US. In Germany in the 1930s, as in the US now, both sides claimed patriotism, all declared love for their flag and a belief in their superiority over all other nations. an innate supremacism, and all loved the idea of military might. To achieve power, the Nazis created hatred for marginalised groups whom they could blame for everything bad and persecute. And sadly, it took WW2 to rid the world of the Nazis. So I don’t know what the solution is, but I don’t think the Good Friday approach would work. Essentially it worked because the majority in N. Ireland wanted to remain British and the IRA terrorists and their backers in Ireland and the US ultimately knew that, and knew they were losing support – I fear in America it’s not as easy as that.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Yes, Carol, it would be bad enough if he was just turning the United States upside down, but he is putting the whole world as we have known it in danger. No telling what ignorant thing he will say this week at the NATO summit. The rest of NATO probably wishes we would pull out, as he has threatened to do. He sees no benefit to our being in NATO. He only sees dollars signs and thinks every country, no matter their size or economic situation as compared to the US, should pay “their fair share.” He only sees NATO as a business deal that is draining the US because he has no knowledge of or appreciation for history. The whole world was ready to come to our aid on September 11, 2001, and he is destroying any goodwill any country held for us. I can’t bear the sight of him or to hear his voice. Last week he proclaimed that he deserved five Nobel Peace Prizes, but he usually mispronounces “Nobel.” He doesn’t know what he doesn’t know. He doesn’t know when he should be embarrassed, which is most of the time. There is a meme circulating on social media that says, “Even animals don’t choose the dumbest one to lead the pack.” Stupid is one thing, but when combined with evil and mental illness it is a recipe for disaster. I miss the carefree days of 2024.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I’m afraid you’re right. I appreciate your perspective, for you were physically closer to The Troubles in N. Ireland than I was. I didn’t mean to leave the impression that our current situation in the US was only comparable to The Troubles. It is more in line with Nazi Germany. The comparison with N. Ireland is the intolerance and growing hate pulling us apart. The hate here is based on the color of one’s skin, the accent in their speech (i.e., Spanish), how conservative or liberal their political views are, and the assumption that all Muslims are terrorists. Unlike in N. Ireland, hate based on religion is way down on the list. Trump has normalized hate speech. But our biggest problem on the political level as opposed to strained interpersonal relationships and civility is fascism. Sadly, WWII did not rid the world of the Nazis. That worldview is alive and well in the US and in the White House. The marginalization of minorities, brown-skinned immigrants, anyone who isn’t wealthy, the physically- and mentally-disabled, etc. has already begun. People of their warped mindset have been elected not only nationally but at the state and local government levels… right down to the local school boards. The banning of books… sometimes it only takes one parent challenging a book in the school library and the board members cave in because they think it is the Christian thing to do. Don’t get me started on that! And the Ku Klux Klan and allied groups like the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers are far more prevalent in our society and within law enforcement agencies and government than we could have ever imagined — and they are heavily armed and high on testosterone. Trump has emboldened those people. Daily life for most of us (except immigrants) goes on without fear for our immediate safety, but the not knowing where or how Trump and his people are going to come down next with their sledgehammers is what leaves us all with a daily feeling or unease. What misstep will he make today or tomorrow? He doesn’t even know because he is “governing” by the seat of his pants — like a writer who doesn’t work from an outline. I always appreciate your comments and perspective.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Thanks, Janet.
LikeLike
Liz, you are a wordsmith.
LikeLiked by 1 person
😊
LikeLike
The 1 hour first segment of BBC’s The World at War has some disturbing parallels to U.S. 2025.
LikeLike
Thank you for sharing that.
LikeLike